Helmut Leitner
Helmut LeitnerHi, I'm a software developer and stumbled over WikiWikiWeb only today August, 6 2000. I was immediately attracted because a lot of my working and thinking is based on LanguageOrientedProgramming using CamelCase names that form a kind of MetaLanguage. I call this language THELOP or in WikiSpeak ThelopLanguage. Perhaps I will try the WikiWikiWeb and write a bit more about these ideas. [This was the first I ever wrote in a wiki and I keep this for sentimental reasons.]
Some of my Wiki related projects:
Some of the wikis I installed:
English:
The wiki engine I use was initially the UseMod engine 0.88 (Thanks to CliffordAdams, its a great software I often recommend) but in Feb 2001 so many changes had added up that I had to fork away from UseModWiki. No chance to keep a common code base. The new name of this wiki engine is ProWikiEngine.
BTW I found glimpses of this wiki's history: OvercomingOpenness http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WelcomeDaterVisitors
Helmut, the WelcomeDaterVisitors page repeatedly gets taken over by spammers. Can you restore a good version of it? Or perhaps the "Way Back" link I substituted above is good enough? Your home page appears to have the only link to WelcomeDaterVisitors. -- ElizabethWiethoff
You can find me at MeatballWiki or any of the wiki projects above.
In response to the discussion we had on MeatballCommentary?, cause it's just becoming too unwieldly there, and until we find a better place, here are my comments:
You may have gathered a lot of expertise on technical stuff and rather academic stuff at MeatBall, but on the other hand it is rather painfully obvious that you are slow to understand people. First of all, I understand criticism and I enjoy it, see CriticalSpirit and CriticsAreYourBestFriends which I started at some non-trivial personal cost in the glorious culture where DaleCarnegie has some kind of intellectual standing. Did I mention that I expect you to CriticizeBluntly?
Second, my observation about ego at MeatBall has nothing to do with the outward appearances vis-a-vis signatures. It's ego that is betrayed involuntarily rather than asserted by obvious means. I agree that signatures have nothing to do with ego, and I happen to have defended the use of signatures on c2. When I'll have time, I'll try to correct the EgolessWiki page that may have kead you in the wrong direction. So when you say "we see ego differently" you don't know how I see ego, because you're obviously referring to the wrong thing. I was hoping that you could take a brief moment of self reflection, asking "where can this guy possibly see ego at MeatBall?", and after discarding the obvious non-starters, you may come to see what I see, and this can be valuable to you.
Sure there's plenty of ego to go around on c2 as well, no doubt about that. There is no simple way to get rid of it, nor do I want it to disappear completely, but I know some ways. The cathalytic or the paralyzing role of ego in communities can be quite a subject. -- Costin
Costin, perhaps I'm slow to understand, but who cares. You are perhaps faster, that's nice for you. This is something you want talk about. You talk about Sunir being stressed, about David being inexperienced, about MeatBall having little value compared with WardsWiki. You talk a lot about such things. That way you assume the role of a judge, self-assigned. Of course, some people dislike that and the typical reaction is to go into "defend-attack" communication patterns. Do you enjoy that or does this happen unintentionally? -- HelmutLeitner <last change>
Along with WikiWikiWeb, MeatballWiki has also declined in the past two years. There are more egos there now than before. Correlation, causation. -- SunirShah
Helmut in your latest addition to MeatBallCommentary could you consider rephrasing "all available knowledge ...MeatBall" to "plenty of available knowledge ...MeatBall and WardsWiki"? I have actually been looking through related material at both sites, some similar, some complementary and I feel my suggestion for change could be better. Thanks for considering. -- dl
No problem, I changed it. Although, I looked through WardsWiki recently and didn't find much about the problem of making an online consensus. Could you point me to the corresponding pages? -- HelmutLeitner
Helmut I do not know much about the type of "online consensu" material you seek. Material here is probably scattered about (within and across pages) as you may expect from years of work from a large but unstable list of community participants. Can you point me to 10 or less resources on MeatBall? And I will try to find something here, but these are less academic oriented and may disappoint you.
BTW I have reused HigherPrinciples to launch a simple list of "essentials" (all page names). You views are sought in the associated discussion page. Thx -- dl
David, thank you for your help. What do you think about (me, us) creating something like a consensus roadmap, linking to all pages here and at meatball? Maybe it could provide some understanding of the wholeness and the differences between our communities?
I need to concentrate looking for a job, would slow everyone down. And I am not the academic type. Takes too much learning. It is like proposing interplanetary travel research as a solution to overpopulation on earth. [I am a contradictory and incoherent person too :)]
Helmut I tried to edit a page on MeatBall, and it goes into perpetual "loading" mode. If there is a new procedure could you mod the existing C2 MeatBall page please? Thanks from DavidLiu
David, I had the same problem occasionally during the last few days. MeatBall moved to a new server and there may be some problems related to the move. I'll describe my problems in a few days, if they persist. -- Helmut
It's our OpenProxy detector. You will be tested once a month. -- SunirShah
RE: WikiPeace. I was the other user. What can be added "arbitrarily without reasoning or discussion" can be removed just the same. Since nobody signed it to begin with and I requested that contribution to that page be assumed since they seemed of dubious value, but that request was itself removed from the page, it followed quite logically that the only way to move forward was to take the page at face value :) So I did just that by removing bad advice from the page and therefore improving it.
In all honesty the page was started badly to begin with, and in itself is an AntiPattern in wiki behavior. <last chg> -- CostinCozianu
What I term as the "Costin attitude" is probably behavior of a group of very bright young individuals who quite possibly has not worked in society long enough to appreciate the value of positive dialogues. My advice for others is to "go slow" with these people so your own emotional balance is not going to be tripped by these encounters.
I think one of the byproducts of these experiences is that people "can become" less careful about their contributions. You never know if and when your work gets challenged by one or more persons, with or without good cause, and before long, another edit war starts. On CommunityWiki C2 is being classified as "scratch wiki" and I think this has lots to do with it. -- dl
I am actually not focused on Costin the person, rather the "win lose binary thinking" that happens to be characterised by the "visible Costin". So in that sense I have been unfair about Costin the person, but the behavior pattern of a group of people similar to Costin is not helping collaboration, I think. This is because the same community of people cannot afford to repeatedly apply precious resources to interact with new people that behave in similar manners.
I have not been very clear on this. I may try again later with the new Playnice "CoffeeShopStory" page that can be deleted after discussion is over. Bear in mind my English needs refactoring as it take lots of my effort to write clearly and concisely.
BTW I quite admire the courage of Costin the person to stand out and explain his actions. I think plenty others do worse things using IpUsername and without proper dialog. And I think XxxxWayOrTheHighway, I did not write the now deleted page that had Costin name in it, is not the WikiWay as I understand it. -- dl
It's a nice story but in real life such stories rarely have a happy ending. -- DontLookAtTheFinger. Single persons are never the problem. The (lack of) community is the problem. -- HelmutLeitner
On CostinMindWipe? you wrote:
Repelling A or B doesn't solve the problem. There is no single individual who is to blame but in thousands of interactions everyone contributes to the problem day by day. When I hear A talking about the "crap of B", it really hurts. Think twice before you use such words. Tomorrow you will have to depend on each other, have to seek a consensus. Why do you insist to be losers? Why don't you create a vision and play that wiki game together as a team of winners?
Because we're not idiots and we know that there is no compromise between dissent and orthodoxy, between creation and destruction. Because we don't think that avoiding a Borg uni-mind is to be "losers". Because we don't go in for transparent marketroid manipulation. Because you don't know what you're talking about, neither about me nor Costin nor Wiki nor even rights (though you persist in rambling brainlessly about them). WikiWiki is TheCity and your insistence on judging it by small-town values is ridiculous. -- RK
A few dozens of active participants - knowing each other at least by name - don't make a city, only a small village. Socially WardsWiki is more like the survivors of an airplane wrecked on an island. You and Costin and others form an orthodoxy thinking it's natural to go for a "wolf pack" hierarchy of social status by individual challenges, debates and fighting. I'm in the role of the dissenter promoting to build a community and to go for constitutional elements. -- HelmutLeitner
I have not responded to your question re: RightToChangeMyMind but I have added comments to GunnarZarncke Home Page I would like you to look at ASAP before CC starts manipulating again. -- dl
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