Shu Ha Ri Timing

As a student, instructor and mentor, I really like the ShuHaRi concept. I wonder what thoughts folks have on the right timing of the phases, and on the consequences of poor timing. Here are some attempts/examples:

Shu phase too short:

learner does not have a good grasp of the basics
learner is too slow at simple things
learner is too wrapped up in reflection to accomplish things

Shu phase too long:

learner mistakenly treats the way they learned as the OneTrueWay
the technique has lost its newness and learner is unable to reflect on it
learner gives up techniques because they do not adapt to his/her needs

I also wonder if, in practice, ShuHaRi occurs in cycles. For example, if you have 20 skills to teach, do you teach all 20 in the rote style, then vary them after they are learned, or do you teach maybe 5 basic skills by rote, then let the others come as variations and combinations of the basics in the Ha and Ri stages? Many possibilities here (need better examples from real life).

I am regularly guilty of pushing students out of the Shu stage too early.

I know too well that thing can vary, and have trouble, as a teacher, in staying in rote mode for long. As a student, my move out of Shu depends on how similar the new subject is to what I already know / can do. I recently took sabre lessons, and I really objected to being told to invent anything - I wanted to master a few muscle movements completely before moving on. Being asked to be fluid and flexible and "do anything" disturbed my mind terribly. For me, muscle-based learning begs to have movements pushed down to the reflex level before being changed. In mental activities where I already have some reference points, on the other hand, I'm almost the opposite. As soon as I'm told one thing, I want to try varying it. Tough on my teachers, usually. --AlistairCockburn

I HaveThisPattern. What I find is important is that you have a reference for what a good movement looks like, sounds, like, and most importantly feels like. So when I'm learning a new variation, I have a target. It is also necessary to upgrade that reference every so often. I don't think it really matters if you explore too soon or too late as long as you have some way to get feedback (i.e., "stepping to the floor") --JasonYip

Interesting. Perhaps the teacher shouldn't say "you should follow these rules", but rather "you should learn what it is like to follow these rules".

I like to think of it more as a concept rather than distinct phases: In reality any student is somewhere in between each phase. Teaching each skill at Shu level before proceeding is a Bad Thing in my opinion. A learner should be aware that there is more to grasp, that simply copying is not enough, even when it's the best he can do for now. But I usually make it clear what level I'm currently aiming at, like: This is a basic rule, try to stick with it until it feels naturally. Or: You've learned these steps, now let's try to think about how to vary them.

Shu Ha Ri - Expect a lot from the students. They will naturally flow from Shu->Ha->Ri and back. In general, it's a bad idea to move a student from one to the other. Their own development causes the movement naturally. As an instructor: While you see the student in Shu... whenever you see examples of breaking that are 'good' encourage.. whenever you see examples of breaking that are bad, discourage. In the dojo, sensei hit you for bad Ha and allow you to hit for good Ha. Ri is completely out of your control as a teacher and a simple result of the student gaining a level of mastery of the subject material that allows them to improvise effectively.

Regarding skills: The teaching of skills is of necessity a Shu activity. Skills can be though of as rules that get adhered to. Ha activities are experimentation. Ri activities are displays of mastery.

See: http://www.advdojo.org/shuhari.html

As an appendix to the above, I definitely believe that ShuHaRi is cyclical... especially for larger bodies of learning that can be broken down into chunks..when it can not only be cyclical but parallel.

-- Ron Fox

I heard something from Chinese swordman about the three levels of learning sword. It is: "Sword is in hand but it's not in heart.", "Sword is not in hand but it's in heart.", and "Sword is neither in hand nor in heart." I think this three levels can be used to check if you has reached the Shou, Po, or Li. --GuangjunMa

Regarding the misconception that Shu Ha Ri are fixed stages see e.g.:

http://kenshi247.net/blog/2011/08/09/ikeda-yuji/

And Ikeda sensei's quotation on Shu Ha Ri.